[John Petrella]: Hello, everyone, and welcome to our show, Method Happenings, a show for and about the city of Medford, and I am John Petrella. The purpose of this program is to give Medford citizens facts and information to help you make informed choices and to discover city services or businesses you may not have been aware of. Our guest today is a good friend and a person who's done a lot of things for the city of Medford, Rick Alondo, who has been following the Medford High School project Welcome, Rick. It's a pleasure to have you on.
[Richard Orlando]: Well, thank you, John. And my hat's off to you. You're doing a good service for the community, you and the team here. I'm here to talk a bit about the high school project. And just so you get a sense of where I'm coming from, I've been attending. I've stayed informed of the program. I've been attending the meetings. I have knowledge of the MSBA and some past experience. I've met with key people such as Jenny, the head of the building committee, and had some very good discussion with her. And the two key points when we wrapped up our meeting, she asked about, you know, what are some key objectives, and I said, The two things that are essential are really transparent community input And really a concerted effort to address the costs of the current proposal and get those costs down So they would be acceptable to the public.
[John Petrella]: Okay, very good. And I know you have a lot of experience I can vouch for that with the with the elementary schools that we built. So, great job on that. That was a long time ago. Yeah, but still, still, it's a great thing. All right, so we're going to get started. We're going to get right into it. So, can you tell our audience, Rick, what are the major elements of a successful school building project?
[Richard Orlando]: Well, I think I think there are three major elements. There's community engagement, the facility itself, the design, what are the issues, what are the needs, et cetera. And the third item is figuring out the financial solution for whatever plan you choose to go forward with. Generally, my take on it is that the community engagement is probably the item that should have been addressed first. And for reasons that they chose to get into, the current building committee chose to start off with the facility, the design, various options and so on. I would have preferred for them to spend more time on community engagement, to understand basically what the community is looking for, before they started getting into design options. But, you know, that issue can be addressed. One thing I want to make certain that everybody understands, myself and other people that I've spoken with, everybody understands that the facility, the high school that we're at right now, it needs attention. There's problems here that need to be addressed so no one is saying no, let's not do anything to the high school. The high school needs some kind of solution, some kind of improvement, be it building, new, renovation, some kind of combination, something needs to be done. In all these pieces, again, the community engagement, the facility, and the funding, they all play heavily into a solution.
[John Petrella]: Okay, so the, can you give us a little idea, you know, the facility issues, the needs?
[Richard Orlando]: Well, did you wanna talk about the community? Well, let's talk about that first, okay. I always like to get into the community engagement. Yeah, let's get into that first. I think that should have been approached first. All right. Because what it does, it allows the group that was commissioned by the city, the building committee. Okay. It allows them to go out into the community and educate Not only collect inputs, but also provide information to the citizens. For example, let people know. Some people haven't been up at the high school for years. What's the current condition of the school? And there are clearly issues up at this facility. You can do that through tours, you can do it through pitches and meetings with the invited the community to come at. One of the things I hear all the time when the school was built, Rick, It was built for over 3,000 kids. Whatever they're going to do is going to be smaller, right? I said, no, not really, because the SBAB has space requirements per student and so on. Information like that can help clarify some misconceptions that the public may have on the size of the facility that may be needed and so on. Also, the high school, you know, from an educational point of view, what is the administration thinking of doing? The vocational school, the traditional high school, some kind of combination of things. Talk about that with the community so they can understand what that's about and do they have a preference on that. Again, that engagement with the community up front has a lot, you get a lot of value. Outreach methods I think are important. I think you can't have an expectation that the public is always going to come to you. You've got to go out into the respective neighborhoods. There are facilities all around the school, the existing schools, the library, where you can have meetings in the neighborhoods and get people in those respective neighborhoods to come and, again, connect with you and so on. Research. I think a big item I see on research is going into other communities that have done this, that have high school projects that have been successfully completed, maybe a few years ago, but you can get insights into those schools and so on. We'll talk a little bit more about that. And the last thing is the MSBA process. It's not just about communicating that organization's schedules. It's really about the building committee. It's really about getting the best solution for the community. So I think maybe that's what I wanted to say on community engagement.
[John Petrella]: gets you on one thing, and that is, now maybe I'm wrong, but I think I misunderstood you, but maybe I didn't. So the high school that's there now was built. You know, I went there, most of my friends graduated from there. It was built for 4,000 kids.
[Richard Orlando]: Yeah, it might have been, yeah, 4,000.
[John Petrella]: And I understand, you know, the times change and maybe, but that facility is huge.
[Richard Orlando]: The facility's huge, but what the Medford, through the building committee, needs to understand what, yes, the MSBA has square foot requirements per student for each classroom. And all of the other specialty spaces, the science labs, technology rooms, auditoriums, et cetera. Every space, hallways, all of that is accounted for. And what it was in the early 70s when the high school was built and what those requirements are today are different, which might create a different square foot requirement than people would have thought. Expected, right, okay, all right.
[John Petrella]: All right, now that makes sense, you cleared it up for me.
[Richard Orlando]: Yeah, they've changed a little over 30, 40 years.
[John Petrella]: Oh, I'm sure, I'm sure, I'm sure. But I'm, you know, like I said, there's about 1,300 students they're planning for.
[Richard Orlando]: Yes, much smaller number of students, yes.
[John Petrella]: So now, we covered that. Why don't we cover facility issues and the needs? The scope?
[Richard Orlando]: Yeah. Defining the scope. The project scope, yeah. The facility needs, issues, the scope is crucial because that basically becomes your specification for what you're going to build. It's something that needs to be done up front before you start getting into You know, the design, you know, what windows, what colors, all that stuff, that's down the road. But you need to first define what you're going to include in the new facilities. And the needs need to be real, not nice to have wishes. You've got to put what the real needs are, and those need to be driven by educational needs that you can then begin to measure success on that. And the building committee in doing this work, I refer to it as a cost reduction mentality. Don't start with just expanding, expanding, expanding when in fact that drives costs through the roof that now you're going to have trouble getting support from the community. If we want this to go forward successfully, it has to be compatible with what the public is willing to pay for such a new facility as this. One of the interesting things was, and I think this project scoping, what the needs are, needs to be done, it needs to be done sooner rather than later. I was in a meeting, one of the building committee meetings, and one of the members of the committee Asked I think it was left one of left field staff left fields. That's the owner project manager firm that we have and I think The question was asked well, you know when the s the MSBA comes out with the percentages of what they're going to contribute to us and so on if the cost is still unacceptable can we make changes to the design scope now that would be in April of 2027 So think forward on it. The gentleman from left field said not really because by that time you've got the design pretty much nailed down. So in other words, you're too late. The costs aren't acceptable. It's tough to make decisions. So that's why you've got a year in advance of that. We need to start focusing on the scope. and the true requirements, the needs, which drive the square footage right now.
[John Petrella]: Now, do that first. Yeah, get it out of the way. So that's all important stuff. Now, the thing that I think, I mean, this concerns everybody. I mean, really, I mean, can you give us, I guess, like, the word is like viable, financial,
[Richard Orlando]: solutions, funding options, I don't know what you would call it. Well, you know, once you've got the scope identified, it starts, you start getting a sense of how, what the facility might cost and so on. What you've really got to make sure is that, well, make sure, maybe that's not the right way to phrase it. You've got to do whatever you can to have the cost in line with what the needs are. Because ultimately that drives the tax implications to the public. Yes. In a major way. And I think, you know, I am of the opinion that the sooner you get that cost information, even if it's preliminary. Right. To give people a range of what this could be potentially costing, that's going to get them engaged. That's going to have them come to the table to say, Why should it be in that range? What could you do to reduce it? We would like to see this versus that. It's going to create this dialogue. Right. And this seems to be perhaps for reasons they don't want to stop putting the cost out now because they're afraid it's going to scare people uh... you know i think you know to see what your program is about we've got to have information to make informed decisions so even though it might create some some heartburn in the community initially it will create a dialogue which then can help the building committee understand what the community wants and is willing to pay for so very very important I think um so I mean being financially accountable to the people that live here is huge that's you know
[John Petrella]: I mean, I, you know, listen, I agree with you, you know, about the school. We need a new facility, an updated facility, whatever it is. But we also have to be accountable.
[Richard Orlando]: I mean, $800 million, I mean, that just to me sounds... And I think, I think if they sharpen the pencil and look at it again, if they understand what the community wants in this new facility, or as... updated, new facility. They can then begin to make, in some case, tough choice to say, well, we can take this out, remove that. You know, one of the things I hear is they're looking at shared classrooms, which that's an interesting concept because it maybe eliminates the number of classrooms because the teacher isn't going to have a dedicated classroom to their course. So there's a lot of different things they can consider.
[John Petrella]: All right, so let's move on to our next question. Can you tell us, what should citizens know? about the MSBA process. And I just want everyone to know, the MSBA is the Massachusetts School Building Authority for those, you know, sometimes we throw initials out and people have no idea. So it's the Massachusetts School Building Authority. You know, I'd like to hit on, like, how do we maximize the funding from them? Yeah, we'll talk about that.
[Richard Orlando]: That would be nice. But basically, you know, the value that the MSBA provides to any community engaging in such a process. They've been doing this for a while. They know they have a whole process. They have steps. They lead communities through how to do that, what they need to deliver, when they need to deliver it, how they need to work with the professional organizations they ultimately hire, like the architects, the owner, project managers, and so on. And that's, you know, for most communities, we don't do this that often. So it's a new game for most people, even with the building committee with experience. people who have skills. You're getting into an area that is not common or familiar ground. The MSBA leads you through all that, gives you all the timetables, sets the dates, meets with you. They'll come out and do assessments of your existing facilities, which I think they've obviously, by this time, they've done that to the high school. They'll provide guidance on some of the professional service firms that you need to engage with. And so it's a very helpful process, and you can go on their website, and there's more than enough information if you're so inclined to find out more of those details. But also what it helps, and one of the things that they require, the state requires, is community input. Now, as I often say, most people, it's not about input telling you as you get into the building discussion, oh, I want this color or that wall. It's not about that. It's more about people's sincere inputs on what they would like to see in their facility. So for example, the traditional high school and the vocational school, just use that as one example. What do people feel about that? They've been traditionally separate. But now there's some talk about integrating to a degree those two programs. What do you, the community, think about that? Because as you get inputs from the community on that, it refines or gives direction to the building committee in the school administration which way to go, which has an impact on space, numbers of classrooms, where to locate the facilities or the rooms inside the building. That's the kind of input that comes about with good active engagement from the community.
[John Petrella]: Yeah. So, the MSBA really does have a big role.
[Richard Orlando]: Oh. They really do. I mean... You have to meet the deadlines, meet the requirements, the reports, drawings. All of that has to be met in order to, if you want to get any funding, you have to meet those requirements.
[John Petrella]: Okay. So, that's a big part of it. all right well we're gonna go to the next question um and uh yeah this is like huge i think uh and we'll talk about a lot of other things but What is it that drives the project costs? What's the main thing behind that? Well, the funding eligibility? Yeah, driving the costs, yeah.
[Richard Orlando]: Well, I've got something that can explain some of those a few, but on the funding itself, which again is provided by the MSBA if you've met all the requirements. Right, okay. What happens, and I think you can see it on the screen there, all communities are started and baselined at 31%. Based on a number of different things, criteria you meet, you could get additional percentage points. You might get two points for this, one point for that. There's things about maintenance, energy conservation, the socioeconomic profile of the community. There are a number of things that will get you additional percentage points. points, which is good. So you might go from $31,000 to $35,000 to $37,000. And again, that is a percentage of funding the state will provide against the total cost. Now, something to really be clear on, they will only provide funding for eligible project costs. Some things are not eligible. Okay, so? You know, if they wanted to put, I think, district offices for certain city functions in the building, you can do that, but they're not going to provide any funding for that. They're not going to give you a penny? Not going to give you a penny towards that. You might want to do, we've got a pool, you might want to renovate the pool, build a new pool. Again, you can do that, but you're not going to get any money for that out of the state. Auditorium, increasing the auditorium, I think there are space limits on how big you can get. If you go over that, you're not going to get money for that. So, it's important to understand that whatever percentage is decided on ultimately is only for those things that are eligible.
[John Petrella]: So, I mean, when they put this all together, You said 31%. So the MSBA is actually going to come in and tell you, no, no, no, we're not. What they're going to pay for, what they're not going to pay for.
[Richard Orlando]: Well, they will go through. I think it's next. think it's about a year from now they will give the city because this the city will have given them this selected design right the costs and the MSBA will then say okay yep we approve that and the percentages we're going to give you based on all the dialogue we've had meeting criteria is going to be X percent and so they will they will give that they're in the driver's seat
[John Petrella]: So, and what you're saying is the baseline is 31%, but it could be a little higher, but could also, could it be lower?
[Richard Orlando]: I don't think so. I don't think so. Okay. I mean, again, if you had, Whatever the cost of the project is, that percentage that's approved is only going to be for the eligible items. So if you had a high school project that was $600 million and $100 million of the construction was not for eligible items, that percentage would not apply to that.
[John Petrella]: So they're not going to pay for any of that?
[Richard Orlando]: They would not pay for that portion of it. Again, they will make it very clear what they cover and what they don't cover.
[John Petrella]: people will know ahead of time uh everyone that's working on this project will know ahead of time and hopefully uh the citizens of method would know ahead of time right i mean that's that's going to be open and out there right yes okay but now this this goes to a point i raised a few minutes ago a little earlier yes that's going to happen i think in april of 27
[Richard Orlando]: okay and one of the building committee members asked that question when that happens we see the percentages and we realize it's still too expensive what latitude what flexibility do we have to modify the scope and change the cost and the input from the professionals was at that time it's pretty well locked in oh so that's my point we need to do the evaluation of the scope and reducing items now, not a year from now.
[John Petrella]: So that's a key thing, and I'm glad we got that out there. And that's the stuff we're here for, to get that information out. That's big, that's huge.
[Richard Orlando]: It's very significant. Yeah, I had no idea. You have to know when, again, their process is all mapped out. You have to know when in the process you need to provide certain things.
[John Petrella]: Well, let's hope the process is followed here. All right, so now, I had mentioned it earlier. We'll get into it now. And this is what I'm always. Are we all set with that last subject, by the way, before we move on?
[Richard Orlando]: We're pretty much covered?
[John Petrella]: All set? Okay. I just want to make sure because that's big. So next is what actually drives the project cost? What's going to
[Richard Orlando]: you know what are the factors that drive that so there is it's basic math it starts with the scope which defines what you want to include in the building I want these kinds of rooms, this kind of science lab, this size auditorium, these kinds of offices for the school administration. All of those things, every one of those items gives you a square footage per what the MSBA rules are for allowable space. So a classroom that's going to house 25 kids, there's going to be a square footage size for each kid. It's going to say that classroom needs to be that size. It's that detail. Oh, very much detail.
[John Petrella]: They're going to say this classroom's going to have 25. So that means all the classrooms going to have 25? The general standard.
[Richard Orlando]: The general guideline. Okay, that's interesting. But the question becomes are there things that the current building committee, school administration might be entertaining to be included in this project that are things that are going to drive costs that are maybe optional as to whether you want to include them in the high school, meaning, optional meaning, can we afford to do that? So again, it goes to the project scope, which is defined, defines the square footage, and looking at the chart there, you see the square footage, and then basically the square footage drives the construction cost. So what do you want to put in there? How many square feet times the appropriate rates? And you get the cost of the project, the school.
[John Petrella]: And we want to hope that everything that's in that square footage is something that they will pay for. help us pay for.
[Richard Orlando]: The more exactly the more of that that they participate in meaning eligible things. Correct. The better off we are. Right. If you have a lot of stuff in there that's nice to have but not eligible those items will be borne by the city. Yeah. So there could be a lot of added costs. Could What you want to do is really sharpen the pencil and really question whether you need that. Okay. Because that's ultimately going to say you have to be financially responsible, accountable to the citizens, the taxpayers. They absolutely positively have to be. So I would just suggest just keep in mind as we go move, I think there's another slide coming up. Yeah. Keep in mind square footage. and driving your requirements and your scope and ultimately your construction cost. Keep that in mind as we go through one of these slides. All important stuff. Yeah, it really is.
[John Petrella]: All right, so let's get to the I think this is important, too. How does Medford High School, the building project, compare? I mean, there's been a lot. We all know there's been similar projects in surrounding communities. So how does this compare? How does Medford compare with what these other And I know you're good with numbers. How do they compare with what's been going on around us?
[Richard Orlando]: Well, before we jump right into that, I'm going to stay right on that. That point was raised by one of the building committee members. Okay. He was very knowledgeable. When he heard, when they first started coming out with the proposed designs and they were all in around the 800 plus million dollar range he said have we validated those numbers against other communities have we looked at whether we're you know what's the odd stick for what will be appropriate for similar similar size schools versus what we're doing. And let's go out, visit those schools. We did this years ago when we did the earlier project. You get tremendous information from other communities. Of course you do. They tell you what's good, what doesn't work, what does work. Very helpful and it helps you really because those are questions the community is going to ask. And if you can say we did that and we understand why this is different why it's the same because you know the immediate knee jerk reaction well you know all this all the school projects are different. they are in terms of what they choose to put in their schools, the scope. Right. They all use the same MSBA process. They all have to conform to the schedules. They all have to conform to the square foot requirements. The construction costs, basically, whether you're in this town or that town, if you're building at the same time, are relatively the same. Right. So there's a lot of similarity. And you just have to dig deeper to say, what's the scope? So let's just look at this chart here. We have the chart right now Medford has five designs. I think this six is when they call the one that brings it up to code requirement. I don't think that's what will be end up being selected will be one of the one of the five. All of those designs are over 600 square 600,000 square feet.
[John Petrella]: Wow.
[Richard Orlando]: And that, the student population here that they've included in their plan is 1,395 students. Right now, that, those schemes, those five designs are coming up in excess, all of them, of $800 million. okay that's an estimate and you know where might we fall with the MSBA funding who knows 30 40 percent but that hasn't been determined or committed yet right so now let's step back and look at surrounding communities that have done high school projects granted a little bit earlier Arlington was between 20 and 25 when that was built okay 411 square feet 1,755 students Does that beg some questions? Absolutely. It does. Now again, Arlington, what they chose to put in there, not put in there, might be different than what Medford is considering. But again, you have to be able to answer these questions. That project ran at about a little under $300 million, and the SBA gave them $83 million of that. OK. Winchester, which was a renovation, 284 square feet, 1,370 kids. A renovation that would cost a little over $100 million. And you can see the numbers there in terms of what they got back from funding. Right. Stonehenge was a very different animal, much smaller school, 207 square feet. They had under 600 kids. So that's probably not a good comparison point. But the others, when you have schools that are servicing similar size student bodies, the question needs to be answered, why is Medford so significantly higher square foot wise? And if you can defend that and make a case that we want to put these programs in there and the community says we absolutely agree with that, then the square foot numbers can stand on their own. If not, then you've got to question what you're going to remove. See you in that shot. changes a lot of things I'll tell you probably I'm probably gonna hear some comments after the show it's probably well Rick you know that's not a perfect comparison nothing in this right but it puts up some information that causes you to question what our numbers are, which drive us to $800 million. And that's the exact question the gentleman on the building committee, when those numbers first came out, says, we need to go and visit other communities. We need to understand so we can baseline and verify these numbers against other communities of similar size that recently did projects.
[John Petrella]: And this is someone that's on the building committee. Yes. And obviously he's
[Richard Orlando]: he's he knew what he was talking yeah he does yeah he's he's doing the right thing for the he didn't yeah i don't think they responded i don't think they took the action item let's just say okay we do need to do that and that's the work that needs to go on between now right next spring yeah when they really start when they have the final stuff all submitted to the state yeah
[John Petrella]: I mean, you know, I've said it and, you know, we've had a lot of, we've had Jenny on, you know, Zach Beers, council president, they talked a little bit about the school, the mayor. I mean, this is, it's a big. It's a big project. Project. It really is. And, you know, All's we're trying to do is just get all the information out, and that's all we can do.
[Richard Orlando]: And what we all, as a community and building committee, we need to understand that this, whatever results in this project, whatever comes about, needs to be a reflection of what the community wants. Right, yeah. Not something, a small, that certain decisions were made and people feel we really didn't give input to that. I'm not suggesting that, but I think further engagement, further outreach, I think it's going to be very useful because then the building committee can stand tall and say, okay, we talked to the community on this and they told us they would like this, they're not willing to pay for that. And this is why we're making those decisions to make adjustments. Again, because it should reflect what the community wants.
[John Petrella]: And I hope that happens and I'll be honest with you, You know, we're doing, we're gonna have, I'm sure we're gonna do a couple more shows on this. You know, we got a lot of shows planned, a lot of things going on in the city, but this is really important stuff. And I just hope this isn't one of those, it's gonna divide the city and you know, everything else. I hope they can just keep it all together, The information needs to get out there, good, bad, whatever, and everyone just has to come to an agreement, a solution, whatever.
[Richard Orlando]: I think if the community looks at this whole process and feels that they've been heard, that the building committee is doing the best to get the best solution for the city with funding, with real needs, that they feel it's been a credible effort, the city, the voting public, and then it goes to the ballot, then I think it will be relatively, then I think it can potentially be successful.
[John Petrella]: Right, I hope so.
[Richard Orlando]: If the community doesn't feel that, They've been heard or that the the costs aren't in the range that they are willing to pay for Then it's going to be an uphill battle and that would be and then it'll become as you say Once I getting pitted against the other side, you know, we would hope that that would not happen I just know if like 800 million that is a huge Huge ask of people in this city and really the homeowners and stuff.
[John Petrella]: Yeah, that's that's a big ask in renters. I Yeah, rent is too low. Their rent's going to go up. I mean, we all know what the results are going to be. It's money. Yeah, it's something that's got to be considered. All right, we're going to, unfortunately, Rick, we're going to wrap it up. That's fine, Sean. But I'm going to tell you, the information that we have today, I think, is very, very valuable. I think the people that see this, that watch our show, and there's a lot. We got a lot of viewers lately. Numbers keep climbing up for us. We're happy about that.
[Richard Orlando]: Like I said earlier, you're doing a great service, you and the team, a great service to the community.
[John Petrella]: We really are trying. All right, we're going to wrap it up, Rick. Thanks for coming on. And it's that time again. So I'm going to thank Rick again for joining us on Method Happenings. And I also want to take a minute to thank everyone, and I mean everyone, who has been watching the show. The numbers are phenomenal. I want to thank you for your feedback. And put it out there, if you want to appear on the show, please contact us at medfordhappenings02155 at gmail.com and you're going to be able to watch replays of this program on medford community media access channel And I'm also going to let you, please, please, I got to let you know, check out our website, methodhappenings.com. And you can now either view or listen to the podcast of this program. And the other place you could find all of our shows on YouTube, all you have to do is go to Method Happenings on youtube.com. It's that simple. so please like and subscribe to our channel we appreciate it and you know view our videos and and last but not least you can also find us on Facebook at method happenings that that's a new Facebook site that we put up and you can also view us on other Facebook sites as well. So anyhow, for the Method Happenings team, Paul, Marco, Bruce, and of course, James, I'm John Petrella. And remember Method, please stay informed. Thank you, Rick. Thank you, John.
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